Gann Law Books in New Jersey with Howard & Larry

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Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (01:03)
Welcome back to New Jersey Criminal Podcast. I am joined today by Howard Dubner. Howard is vice president and one of two principals of Gann Law Books, which is the publisher that everyone who is an attorney in New Jersey is familiar with, publisher of New Jersey Law Books based out of Newark. Gann Law Books was founded back in 1936. And Howard is here today to

not only tell us about how Gan Law Books got started, but also give us a preview of some new offerings that they have lined up for us. Welcome, Howard.

Howard Dubner (01:43)
Well, thank you. It's a pleasure finally, after we got through all of our difficulties here. ⁓ Yeah. Well, here we go. ⁓ I love that background that Larry comes up with. I don't know if he shows up.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (01:49)
Yeah.

Yeah, and we're

trying to, we're also, just let our listeners know, we're trying to get ⁓ Larry Ciepleski, who is one of the most senior editors at GAN Law, also available to join us. Larry's having a little bit of technical difficulty today, so if we can't get him on today, we'll be sure to ⁓ do this again in the future and invite him back. But while we're waiting for him to join, Howard, why don't you tell us just a little bit about yourself?

and how you got started with Gann Law Books.

Howard Dubner (02:31)
Well, that's a long story. ⁓ But what I will do though is tell you how Gann got started and ⁓ I'll bring myself into the picture eventually. ⁓ Gann started in 36, Morris Gann started the company in Newark. ⁓ He started by publishing New Jersey Statutes in a hardbound book with ⁓ pamphlets.

annual pamphlets. ⁓ He also started by buying up ⁓ used libraries. ⁓ The war intervened. Morris died during the war. His brother-in-law, Bernie Proetzel, took over Gann and ran Gann until the late 70s when Michael Proetzel and I both joined Gann.

⁓ In that intervening time, ⁓ a number of things happened. ⁓ Westlaw got into the ⁓ statutes business. ⁓ They were also publishing ⁓ opinions, ⁓ cases, and JN Super. We went through some litigation with West as to whether publishers were allowed to

used their pagination. It's very complicated, very interesting stuff. yeah, it's a long story. But back then, the focus, know, law firms to be able to do research had to have these large libraries. ⁓ And the used book business was actually a very important part of all of that because what Gann did was buy up

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (04:04)
That's a story for another day.

Howard Dubner (04:27)
used libraries and make them available at a reasonable cost ⁓ to ⁓ law firms. It was a good way to get started to develop what you needed by way of information. Also during the 50s, GAN continued to publish statutes ⁓ and ⁓ GAN introduced Schnitzer and Wildstein, ⁓ which was this.

actually rather extraordinary analysis of ⁓ civil rules. ⁓ It developed very slowly and bit by bit it was a loose leaf ⁓ and ⁓ they added to it over the years. it was that publication, Sylvia Pressler ⁓ helped them as an editor and her experience doing that

led to her involvement with the court in producing the 69 revision of the court rules, which Gann was the principal publisher of. And that was our introduction to producing analysis of the law that would provide a window.

and context for understanding the law and for accessing all those cases that you had to go to the library to read. At any rate, in the late 70s, as I say, we were publishing the court rules. That was a terrible process where we would cut apart old pages of the book and whatever.

You don't want to know about that.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (06:19)
What

remind me what I didn't hear what you said. What year did you join Gann?

Howard Dubner (06:23)
I joined in 77. ⁓ And for the most part, Gann was selling used law books. ⁓ We did some, we did codifications for municipalities. ⁓ We did a couple of statute books by then, ⁓ and we had sort of stopped doing the full set of statutes, rolling down to doing 18A and 4040A, I believe, at the time. ⁓

And the only ⁓ book with editorial content that we were producing was the Preshla Court Rules. ⁓ But at that point, started to ⁓ produce them ⁓ using... here's Larry. That's fantastic. ⁓ We started producing them using... ⁓

Larry Czaplewski (07:06)
See you

Why am I not getting any

volume?

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (07:16)
We can hear you, Larry. Keep going, Howard.

Howard Dubner (07:16)
Okay, okay,

okay, we started producing them using cold type as opposed to hot type, which was rather remarkable change. it...

Larry Czaplewski (07:21)
Maybe there's no microphone on this computer. More speakers.

⁓ I have

speakers.

Howard Dubner (07:33)
At that point, the editorial process really only took place when we got a manuscript from ⁓ Judge Pressler. ⁓ At that point, ⁓ it became my responsibility to sit down and read the cases and take a look at what Judge Pressler had to say. ⁓

Larry Czaplewski (07:36)
⁓ Yeah, if you have speakers, you can maybe try and plug those in.

.

Howard Dubner (08:03)
I ⁓ showed remarkable courage and occasionally ⁓ challenged what Judge Pressler had to say. And she was an extraordinarily generous interlocutor ⁓ in that she took my criticisms well. And we were able to fashion a better comment as a consequence. ⁓

At the time, I realized that that was not a good way to do an editorial process. And I started to, on a regular basis, read the cases, read new statutes, ⁓ put them on a...

Larry Czaplewski (08:38)
the power supply in some way.

Howard Dubner (08:46)
on a legal pad and index cards and be ready when I got the next update from Judge Pressler with what I thought the cases had to say, where they belonged in the book, and was able to compare them with what Judge Pressler had to say and where she had them. ⁓

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (09:09)
And so just to, I'm gonna say the obvious, but this was all pre-internet. And so, right, and so you were doing true library legal research to not only obtain the statutes and the regulations and the cases, but then to also analyze them and put them in a format that everyday attorneys could access easily.

Howard Dubner (09:16)
Pre-internet.

Larry Czaplewski (09:20)
Thank you.

You

What? Pick up. Spittle.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (09:37)
and could be accessible not just to the attorneys, but also to, I would imagine, the judiciary. Is that accurate?

Howard Dubner (09:45)
Well, yes, they could be available to both through the court rule book when we eventually produce the three updates that we produced in a loosely and then paperback form every year. Well, that, of course, that was 1977, 78, 79. At that point, it became apparent to us, though, that our book production system, called type, was actually a database.

And we went out to the marketplace and said, hey, can you give us a database that could handle this? Well, they didn't understand word databases back then. They understood number databases, but they didn't understand word databases. It became very apparent to us. And then fortuitously, the 386 arrived on the scene in 1980, 81, somewhere around there.

And at that point, it became apparent to us that, well, why aren't we dealing with this in this sort of context? And we started to develop then our own in-house IT department. And we took those yellow legal pads and index cards, and we made our own editorial system where I could take the cases.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (10:57)
you

Howard Dubner (11:12)
and apply them ⁓ to where I thought they belonged in the rule book primarily at that point. ⁓ Although we had already begun ⁓ our tort claims book

by then, I believe, Title 59. ⁓ And ⁓ we were able to put everything in context and have a provisional comment ready to go. ⁓ A few years on,

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (11:25)
you

Howard Dubner (11:39)
⁓ I introduced that to Judge Pressler who ⁓ said, hey, I'll never understand this. I can't work this. I can't even work a cell phone. But it turned out that she discovered

that it worked really well and very easily. And so we were able to stay up to date on a ⁓ week by week basis internally. ⁓ And then this became available as we added editorial staff at that point.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (11:56)
you

Howard Dubner (12:08)
⁓ to each of our editors to sit down, review cases as they came down, review statutes, ⁓ and to start for all of our books. ⁓

And that's the basis for our current online system. Of course, we have our books and we have our online system. ⁓

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (12:28)
So that's such a, I mean,

that's such a rich history, especially for younger attorneys who may be listening ⁓ as to the evolution of legal research here in New Jersey, beginning in the thirties, going through what you said, you referred to the 386, which for our listeners was one of the first PCs, right?

Howard Dubner (12:32)
yeah.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (12:51)
all the way through today where we're having discussions about the use of artificial intelligence in legal research, et cetera. But before we started, you made a comment and I wrote it down. You're still doing real research with real people. And how many publications does GAN currently have?

Howard Dubner (12:51)
Yeah.

To be honest, I can't tell you, about 20, I believe at this point. And we pretty much cover the gamut of New Jersey law now.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (13:16)
Right, okay.

That's what I was going to say. You cover everything. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe each one of your books that come out on either an annual or biannual basis are also accessible online for updates as they evolve throughout that particular calendar year, right?

Howard Dubner (13:41)
Yeah. And what's interesting, of course, is that most folks out there are familiar with us as book publishers. And most attorneys that we speak to say, oh, we love your books. And I said, well, do you use our books online? And they say, no, no, we love books. And I go, well, it's a little bit silly, if I may. I love books as well. And books are great because you have a certain memory.

of where things are in your book. You have a tactile memory. But then you have to go, I mean, in the old days, what you would do is you'd go from one of our books, you'd go down to the library to take a look at the case that we're referencing, because that's ultimately what we want you to do. ⁓ It's what our editorial process is designed to do. It's designed to contextualize

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (14:16)
you

Howard Dubner (14:41)
⁓ case law, statutes, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, to put them all in context and to ⁓ encourage you to go look at the case. ⁓ From time to time, we might ⁓ provide some detailed analysis of the case, how it fits into its context. Shepard tries to do that.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (14:52)
. you

Howard Dubner (15:11)
but doesn't exactly do what we do because we discussed it in that context and in relation to all the relevant cases. But back to the point we started on, the thing now is you don't go to the library to see, to read the case anymore, you go online. Well, from our book, from our online product, you can click right on the full text of the case, the full text of the statute, et cetera, et cetera.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (15:40)
Right, and your website I should say is ganlaw.com. And anybody who.

Howard Dubner (15:41)
⁓

That's right, exactly.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (15:47)
Purchases one of your one of your books knows that years a code within that book and that's how you can log in and accept and access the online portion And I just want to take a segue here to

introduce better late than never Senior editor Larry Choplisky Larry welcome Thank you very much for your persistence apologize for any issues technical issues you have getting on why don't you

Larry Czaplewski (16:05)
Thank you.

I'm sure it's totally my computer's fault.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (16:15)
Why don't we take a minute, tell us a little bit about yourself, Larry. Howard mentioned that you're the most senior editor at GAN Law. Tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do in conjunction with Howard and the rest of the staff.

Larry Czaplewski (16:28)
Well, I've working here for about 30, a little over 32 years. And essentially it's the same job as Howard, reading the cases right now for updates as they get decided and adding them into the books. Mostly the books that I've worked on in the past, instead of the entire gamut of GAN's publications. Also, I've...

Howard Dubner (16:32)
Thanks for your time.

Larry Czaplewski (16:52)
work on new books as well. The most recent project was the model of criminal jury charges with Judge Koblitz. And that process begins with essentially taking a manuscript, if there is one, ⁓ looking at it in kind of a cursory way and deciding what the more important cases or statutes or in the case of jury charges, the charges are. then starting from scratch essentially and writing our own version of what we think the book should be.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (16:53)
you you

Howard Dubner (17:20)
Thank

Larry Czaplewski (17:21)
And...

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (17:22)
And the model jury charges that is the most recent ⁓ product that Gann is offering, ⁓ two questions. Is that released yet? And secondly, will it be available for both criminal jury charges as well as civil?

Larry Czaplewski (17:38)
Yes.

Howard Dubner (17:40)
The only place you have access to mild jury charges before this was at the court's website. They're not terribly well organized. They're very difficult to get to. And the first task that we undertook that Larry in the case of the criminal charges and another editor ⁓ in the case of the civil jury charges ⁓ was to put them in an order that was coherent. ⁓

The criminal ones were much worse than the civil because the criminal charges had all the charges that you might want to raise during the course of a proceeding. They had them buried at the end. You had to keep clicking through screen after screen to get to them. We've moved them all up to the front and we've created a numeration scheme for them.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (18:32)
Mm-hmm.

Howard Dubner (18:38)
They're then followed by the particular ⁓ charges linked to two C statutes and two A statutes and Title IX, believe. Right,

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (18:44)
Okay.

Larry Czaplewski (18:49)
Yes, Title IX, Title 54, and maybe there's a couple of others as well. 30, I think, has a couple of offenses in it.

Howard Dubner (18:57)
So we've made them more easily accessible.

there's a table of contents that's set up making it all very clear. You can click on

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (19:02)
try to do that.

Howard Dubner (19:10)
one of them and it will then open up into all the charges that follow. For instance, you could do subpart A, which we, for the criminal that we have, it's pre-trial instructions. You click on that and you see first there's 1A1, preliminary instructions to jury, 1A2 instructions regarding juror research, et cetera, et cetera. ⁓ You can then click right through there to see the model jury charge

together with all of the ⁓ court approved or at least the committee approved annotations, et cetera, et cetera, and our comments. And they appear in book form. What you're then able to do is eliminate all that extraneous material, ⁓ see the jury charge by itself. ⁓ You can then choose to put it into a jury

you can create your own jury charge. ⁓ And then you can add other jury charges as appropriate. You can then copy them easily into, from there into ⁓ your own word processor where you get to add facts, et cetera,

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (20:26)
now I would

presume that the online version of this will be updated if and when the New Jersey courts jury instructions are updated such that someone doesn't have to be concerned about utilizing began law books jury instructions and worry that perhaps something's out of date. Am I correct in assuming that?

Howard Dubner (20:52)
Oh, no,

no, no, will be out of date. In fact, one of the advantages is this, that the jury charges themselves are sort of hopelessly out of date. And this is problematic. They're sometimes hopelessly out of date, sometimes they're wrong, simply. That's why we have comments by Justice Laveckia and Judge Copletz together with our editorial staff.

that will bring you up to date. Any case law that interprets ⁓ or addresses that jury charge ⁓ will appear in those comments. Those comments are being added to it as we're going along. They're not fully complete ⁓ products at this point in terms of our commentary, the commentary, we're developing them as we go along. But they're pretty complete at this point and they're very up to date.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (21:49)
Okay.

Howard Dubner (21:50)
And certainly

any time a jury charge is updated, it will appear there almost immediately. And you'll also get to the extent that it's being updated in any particular as to a new case that impacts that, ⁓ as to a change in the model charge itself. You'll get an alert if you have adopted out of our alert service that, hey, there's a case affecting this jury charge, this book.

Et cetera, There's a statue.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (22:20)
.

This

this this product or these products the the models civil and criminal jury charges are they only offered online or are you also offering a text? Yeah, I can understand why I just wanted to confirm that.

Howard Dubner (22:32)
Only online.

And one of the things that we're doing, the Civil Charge book is a product, I should say, it's not a book really. And I have to get unused to just calling our products books ⁓ because frankly, the online product is significantly richer than a book can possibly be.

⁓ We have things like history of rules, history of statutes, you can't possibly put in a book, ⁓ but they're available online. ⁓ At any rate, ⁓ where was I going with that?

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (22:57)
Yeah.

Well,

I would say, and I told you this when I first reached out, you know, I had ⁓ reached out to you after seeing some of your staff at the Boardwalk seminar and said I wanted to have have you on to talk about, you know, GAN law books. ⁓ I mentioned to you that I like the books, right? ⁓ I think every everybody should have at least a copy of ⁓ the attorney ethics book, the law of lawyering, which I

I plugged in a recent CLA that I taught at the Boardwalk seminar. But I will tell you that even in preparation for that CLA, I certainly went on to the online version to see what cases had come out since the last time I got the book. ⁓ But I know that back when I was a prosecutor, we didn't each have our own, but we shared the books. They were on the council table in the courtrooms. Everybody is familiar with seeing them there.

as an aside, have a former colleague that likes to say that she got to pick out the color for the criminal law every year. And so, ⁓ it's, it's, ⁓ it's something that's, you know, Gann Law Books is certainly something that is part of being a lawyer in New Jersey at this point, I think for all, all types of practice areas. How many, and I'll ask Larry this, how many editors are there?

Howard Dubner (24:15)
Yes.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (24:36)
⁓ and do you specialize in a certain practice area?

Larry Czaplewski (24:40)
There are, I think there are about seven editors right now, that sounds about right, Howard. And we, technically none of us specialize in any one particular area. We all work on all of the books throughout the year. But usually the same editor will serve as the quote, lead editor, unquote, at update time on a given book. That tends to recur from year to year. Although it does change.

Howard Dubner (24:47)
Yeah.

And

yeah, and one of the strengths of our system is that as cases come down ⁓ and they go into our online system, which ⁓ our authors are also ⁓ accessing, also putting in ⁓ their comments, ⁓ but it's this sort of double blind system where ⁓ more than one editor

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (25:15)
you you

Howard Dubner (25:37)
will be ⁓ two, three editors will be commenting on that case in a number of contexts and all the contexts of all of our books so that we have, we end up with, we seem to have lost your picture for us, but I don't know.

Larry Czaplewski (25:45)
Thank

Howard Dubner (25:52)
Are you still there? This is somewhat disconcerting. Meg? We've lost you, Meg.

Larry Czaplewski (25:56)
Looks like we lost Ned.

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Larry Czaplewski (28:17)
so now would be the time to tell any jokes that we want to hear. Right.

Howard Dubner (28:21)
Bad jokes, yeah.

There we are. You're back.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (28:28)
I'm back. And I just want to make sure that I am recording now. ⁓ So, ⁓ so continue what you're saying, Howard. I'm sorry. I lost you there for a minute.

Howard Dubner (28:37)
That's okay. Well, the strength of the process that we go through is that multiple editors ⁓ will review cases, statutes, et cetera, ⁓ as they come down and they'll be entered into the system, which will generate what's new buttons for users of the system ⁓ associated with particular paragraphs in the book that will...

advise you that there's a case, there's a statute that's affecting this paragraph of the book that you want to go take a look at. You click on the watch new button, you'll see that case. One of the advantages that this gives us is that we're able to have a variety of viewpoints on both the meaning and the impact of a particular case so that when we start to prepare the annual update,

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (29:23)
.

.

Howard Dubner (29:28)
⁓

There are a number of viewpoints represented and what will happen at that point is it'll go through ⁓ probably a two editor, first a two editor processes, the primary editor who will go through ⁓ and ⁓ come up with ⁓ an answer to each of the different entries from both the authors and the other editors.

and a proposed comment for the book, then the second editor will come through, will review that, will put those comments into place, at which point a red line version of the book will be sent out to the ⁓ author for final review, final edit. so what you'll have then in any one of our products,

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (30:22)
.

Howard Dubner (30:24)
both online and as a book, are variety of views distilled into a single comment. ⁓

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (30:33)
Right. So really a painstaking

process to make sure that there is a neutral presentation.

Howard Dubner (30:43)
Well, it's necessarily neutral, mean, there are times when we will editorialize to a certain extent. If we think that something has gone awry in the process and might be contradicted elsewhere, we might ⁓ call the user's attention to that. ⁓ We can go through... The debates, again, can go on for weeks.

before we finalize a comment because we, and with our authors as well, and with outside resources. I can say that, for instance, a recent case, Date V. Carlton, ⁓ created an awful lot of discussion, both in-house between our editorial staff, ⁓

⁓ our authors and we even consulted outside of that immediate universe ⁓ in order to fashion a comment that or comments in our different publications that we thought ⁓ were proper. ⁓ It's a painstaking process.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (31:50)
Right.

And for our listeners, that's

state Supreme, New Jersey State Supreme Court case that ⁓ came out as a result of a US Supreme Court case related to sentencing. ⁓ And so, and so I can see why without, we'll talk about that case another day, but I can see why that would have generated some discussion internally amongst your staff.

Howard Dubner (32:14)
Exactly. Yeah, it was done.

Yes.

Exactly. again, it's very interesting. mean, our product is constantly being updated. But one of the rules that we have is that no problem, no issue, no is... We don't want to shortchange it. We will go on and we'll go on debating and revising over the years.

It won't end with the first entry. These are things that go on again constantly. And one of the things I'll say to any of the listeners out there, if that's the sort of process you like to engage in, we're always looking for people to join our editorial staff who like that part, who are drawn to the law for that sort of discussion, that sort of

of intellectual ⁓ stimulus. ⁓ You have to be able to take criticism. You have to be able to give criticism. ⁓ We give new editors or ⁓ people who want to join staff a fairly brutal test, as Larry can attest, ⁓ where we challenge you to challenge the opinion.

⁓ We'll give you a case and say put it in our book. ⁓ And we'll challenge you to challenge the opinion, to challenge ⁓ what we've written before in the book, ⁓ and ⁓ then to criticize us, to criticize the case, and then to accept criticism yourself. ⁓ It's actually a lot of fun, but rigorous.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (34:17)
It sounds exciting and it sounds to me like

the two of you

are passionate about what you do. Howard, you're coming up on what 49 almost 50 years with GAN law. Larry, you mentioned a couple minutes ago, you've been with GAN law for ⁓ over 30. ⁓ And so there's certainly it's evident that you have a love for the law and a love for presenting it in a fashion that's accessible to all attorneys in New Jersey. And I'll just mention as an aside, I saw where GAN law books has ⁓

Larry Czaplewski (34:30)
Little over 30.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (34:48)
acquired New Jersey Lawyer's Diary and Manual. Do you want to speak to that at all? Yeah.

Howard Dubner (34:55)
Yes.

Yeah, yeah, we they were going out of business. They didn't. ⁓ The burden of maintaining the sort of databases that they had to maintain had become ⁓ difficult for them, ⁓ and they didn't want to do that anymore. And ⁓ we acquired it. ⁓ We found that their databases needed a considerable amount of work, ⁓ which was a great process actually for us because it convinced us that we have to ⁓

update ⁓ our servers, update the system that we have, which we're in the process of doing right now. It's going to make ⁓ the GAN ⁓ environment ⁓ a lot richer as a consequence. ⁓ We're very pleased with the process that's underway.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (35:50)
That's exciting.

And I think what I'd like to do is, you know, we've talked about ⁓ having each of you back on a regular basis to perhaps, you know, if you want to profile ⁓ different books that you have in different practice areas, if you want to come back and talk about particular cases and how you arrived at the commentary that you did, we would love to do that. I think I'm going to hold off for having you try to share your screen today.

only because we wrestled with a couple of technical issues and I want to end on a positive note. But I did want to ask you one final question and Howard, it's something that you and I had talked about offline and that is, you know, we all hear about this use of AI in legal research. ⁓ Here to comment on that at all or is it just a tool that you utilize or do you not utilize it?

Howard Dubner (36:39)
Yeah, we- we- we-

No, we don't. ⁓ We have utilized it frankly in looking at the way databases are organized and what have you. It's an effective tool there. But we find it deeply problematic and deeply worrisome, to be honest. One thing that was called to our attention, somebody had ⁓ done some online research using AI ⁓ and they had come back with ⁓

a rather extensive citation to our Rules of Evidence book, an ⁓ earlier edition of the book. they wrote to us asking us if they could see a copy of that edition of the book, because they didn't see anything that looked like it in the current edition. And we went back and took a look at it.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (37:41)
.

Howard Dubner (37:43)
They had gone through an extensive thing with AI asking, are you sure that that's, et cetera, et cetera, et And AI, you know the process with AI where you can, it revises and revises and revises. And AI kept assuring them that yes, yes, yes. Well, we went back and took a look at it. It was totally fiction,

absolutely fictional. Not a word of it had ever appeared in our evidence book at any time ever. ⁓

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (38:11)
Okay.

Howard Dubner (38:12)
And

it was somewhat misleading. The comment that it came back with was somewhat misleading on top of all that. It's the sort of thing, it's the sort of hallucination that AI comes up with. We may occasionally, you know, our analysis may not always be spot on, absolutely perfect, but it's always grounded in some level of reality and some level of

multiple review by multiple people who are familiar with that area of the law. It's not something that is prone to hallucination. It may not be entirely correct, but it's not prone to hallucination. We can never be entirely correct about the law, I'm afraid. ⁓ It evolves, after all.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (38:53)
Good. ⁓ Good conversation.

I understand that, but it's good to know

that we've got real research by real people that have been doing it for a number of decades and have been able to evolve as technology evolves, ⁓ but at the end of the day, making law books accessible to lawyers in New Jersey. So ⁓ with that, I'm going to thank

Howard Dubner (39:18)
Yes.

Larry Czaplewski (39:24)
Thanks

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (39:33)
Howard Dubner, VP, Principal of Gann Law Books, ⁓ Larry Ciepleski, Senior Editor. Love to have you guys come back and tell us more ⁓ maybe later on this year.

Howard Dubner (39:47)
Thanks, Meg. And we'd love to come back and actually be able to demonstrate just exactly how our products work online. ⁓ That would be great. And perhaps to get into the weeds on Tholo as well. Yes. Fantastic.

Larry Czaplewski (39:47)
Thank you.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (40:02)
I know we can. I know we can.